tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post3331828978326207265..comments2012-08-30T18:52:54.904-07:00Comments on Freedom Over the Clay: 2 Peter 3:9 God is not willing that any of His elect perish.Ivan Ortegahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03287492344434899622noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-45656327455066572012010-11-17T11:54:44.279-08:002010-11-17T11:54:44.279-08:00how does God wanting every single person to come t...how does God wanting every single person to come to repentance connect with the point that "God is patient towards <b>you</b>?"<br /><br />you want to say that "you" actually means every single human being. but the context is certainly not that - "you" has more to do with the church/believers as distinguished from "them" (the scoffing unbelievers - and again, peter is reminding the church that the scoffers have been judged in the past and will be dealt with in the future in v6-7). God is not delaying Jesus' coming on behalf of "them", the scoffers.<br /><br />so is God being patient toward those who already believed at that point? no. they didn't need Him to be patient, they wanted Him to come immediately, to spare them from suffering.<br /><br />so if God is not being patient with "them" - the unbelieving scoffers, nor the subset of the church that believed at that point in history, then the best explanation is that God is looking ahead to those who will certainly believe, who were chosen from the foundation of the world. from God's point of view - speaking through His Word to the church throughout time - He is patient towards His sheep (but not the goats).<br /><br />"A much simpler way to understand the passage is that it's making a broad statement about God's charachter (He does want any to perhish but rather that all should come to repent.)"<br /><br />it's simpler and it does make God seem nicer. <br /><br />but here's another basic problem with that (besides the fact that the context of 2peter3 includes a promise of judgment for the scoffers), it doesn't fit with what the rest of the bible teaches.<br /><br />look at 1 samuel 2, for example. eli's sons are evil and eli rebukes them for it…but…<br /><br /><i>v25His sons, however, did not listen to their father’s rebuke, for it was the LORD’s will to put them to death.</i><br /><br />why didn't eli's sons repent as their father asked them to, according to the bible? because they chose not to of their "free will?" it's true enough that they chose not to repent, but the foundational reason listed in scripture contradicts your take on 2pet3:9 pretty directly. <br /><br />God could have waited until they were 70 and maybe they would have looked back on their youthful foolishness and repented...but He wasn't obligated to and He didn't. eli’s sons did not listen to their father and repent <b>because</b> God wanted them to perish.<br /><br />Further, God forced a very unwilling jonah to go and preach to ninevah which led to some repentance there (Matt12:41). but in contrast, you have a situation like luke 10:13:<br /><br /><i> Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago...</i><br /><br />Had God compelled someone like jonah to go preach to them, they <b>would have</b> repented. but He didn't, so they didn't. if you are contending that 2pet3:9 teaches that God really wanted them – as He does every single person - to repent, that doesn't fit with the text.<br /><br />-charlesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-70377320669437050232010-11-16T12:38:28.390-08:002010-11-16T12:38:28.390-08:00Charles,
The point that I was trying to makes was...Charles,<br /><br />The point that I was trying to makes was that the us/them distinction in the context does not support the catigories of elect/non-elect, but rather the believers/unbelievers. This becomes escially relivant in the case of the elect who have not yet believed and the funny thing is the passage in question is all about those who have not yet believed, not about those who already have. So none of the contextual evidence supports the given interpretation, since the focus on the unbelieving elect (i.e. those who have not repented).<br /><br />A much simpler way to understand the passage is that it's making a broad statement about God's charachter (He does want any to perhish but rather that all should come to repent) and this broad statement is the reason He is giving an opportunity for the unrepentant to repent. The context is broadened in that it gives a general statement about God and His dealings with the world as a whole.<br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-25547582858162118142010-11-16T08:49:37.263-08:002010-11-16T08:49:37.263-08:00probably should have put quotes around the "t...probably should have put quotes around the "them" in that first paragraph in the previous post...i do completely agree with the dichotomy between the "you/us/we" and the "they/them/scoffers" that form the context of peter's comments in v9...<br /><br />-charlesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-16206227823798152132010-11-16T08:45:38.036-08:002010-11-16T08:45:38.036-08:00"Well now I am even more confused. Is the pas..."Well now I am even more confused. Is the passage a statement about God's decree that only the elect shall repent or His evangelical command that all men repent and believe?"<br /><br />to recap the post: peter is primarily responding to a church body that eagerly desires Jesus to return "right now" - most likely due to persecution. peter encourages these believers to ignore <b>them</b> - the unbelieving scoffers who will be subject to judgement. <br /><br />but rather, to understand that Jesus is not returning "right now" (the point of the passage) because there were some alive at that time who would absolutely be brought to repentance in the future and God refused to close the door on any of His chosen people. they should not be frustrated by God's patience but equate it with the salvation of those still being gathered into the people of God.<br /><br />but God is not merely waiting because someone <b>might possibly</b> believe...He will close the door of time when the last elect person repents and believes (even though some will not have had much time to hear and choose at that point.)<br /><br />if your understanding fits better with the larger context then go with that. (although peter doesn't sound very apologetic about God's fiery judgement on the ungodly in v7, for example) but do consider the larger context rather than merely a sentence fragment in developing your understanding of scripture (which i'm sure you already know).<br /><br />-charlesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-21350223560648056122010-11-16T08:20:10.084-08:002010-11-16T08:20:10.084-08:00not a big deal, but it is helpful to clarify that ...not a big deal, but it is helpful to clarify that it is written concerning the "elect" - those who have believed and who will certainly come to belief in the future - rather than "christians" per se.<br /><br />i might also point out that 2pet3:15 affirms that the patience of God referenced in v9 means salvation, for certain and not merely a vague hope. for a church which was suffering greatly under persecution, this is a great promise. they are not suffering for nothing.<br /><br />-charlesAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-72366762283513460412010-11-15T11:02:05.072-08:002010-11-15T11:02:05.072-08:00I must admit I found myself routing against the Pa...I must admit I found myself routing against the Pat's in their 'perfect seasons'. But as long as your not an Eagles fan, it's all good. I think the Pat's are better off w/o Moss. <br /><br />You can probably already tell why I have reservations about that interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9, so no need for me to repeat them.<br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-70877878594106090142010-11-14T00:35:48.777-08:002010-11-14T00:35:48.777-08:00The passage means that God will certainly bring al...The passage means that God will certainly bring all of His elect to repentance, The elect that already have come to repentance and the elect that haven't. This is the only consistent way to take "patient towards you," given the context.<br />I'm a Pats fan, it's not easy because everybody hates them.Ivan Ortegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287492344434899622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-64731539875440864762010-11-13T05:05:55.692-08:002010-11-13T05:05:55.692-08:00JJ's passing the team to his son scares me a b...JJ's passing the team to his son scares me a bit - there's no end in sight to his influence on the Cowboys. I wouldn't be supprized if he makes Steven Jones the GM sometime soon, but I know who will be calling the shots.<br /><br />So what team do you like?<br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-12552538289040686222010-11-13T05:01:19.430-08:002010-11-13T05:01:19.430-08:00Well now I am even more confused. Is the passage ...Well now I am even more confused. Is the passage a statement about God's decree that only the elect shall repent or His evangelical command that all men repent and believe?<br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-68737597130532702912010-11-12T11:24:14.515-08:002010-11-12T11:24:14.515-08:00Almost. But It applies to the church as a whole...Almost. But It applies to the church as a whole. It would be weird to say repent! and then say, wait you christians, you already repented so you don't have to.<br /><br />Jerry Jones should coach the team he already practically does.Ivan Ortegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287492344434899622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-56392656674027875122010-11-12T08:28:00.745-08:002010-11-12T08:28:00.745-08:00Ivan,
Thanks, I understand about Wade, but I don&...Ivan,<br /><br />Thanks, I understand about Wade, but I don't know why they are going with Garret. It's not like the office was doing great or something. Seems like Jerry just plays favorites sometimes.<br /><br />So your saying the passage is about the church, but not all the church, but only those who are just fronting, but not all that are just fronting, but only the elect who will eventually stop fronting and become the real deal?<br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-3528937896283840742010-11-11T11:51:48.279-08:002010-11-11T11:51:48.279-08:00Dano,
The calling for repentance is the means by ...Dano,<br /><br />The calling for repentance is the means by which God brings in His elect. In a congregation that fact is we can't know the state of a soul by a mere profession of faith. Hence the call for repentance. In 2 Peter 3:9 he is referring to the inner effectual call that brings repentance. God will certainly get his wish. <br />Good luck with Jason Garret!Ivan Ortegahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03287492344434899622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-190563411331943095.post-77794648202169272802010-11-11T09:05:46.170-08:002010-11-11T09:05:46.170-08:00Ivan,
When Peter says that God "is patient t...Ivan,<br /><br /><i>When Peter says that God "is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance," he is referring to Christian's</i><br /><br />Haven't Christians already repented? <br /><br />God be with you,<br />DanGodismyjudgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05310455924556730920noreply@blogger.com